Heliobiology Research

[Solarflaretracker200]

I am so confused I what I just read

So now your interested in bricks? Cool. So your blaming that on the sun? Huh???

[Compuw22c]

1 hour ago, Solarflaretracker200 said:

I am so confused I what I just read

So now your interested in bricks? Cool. So your blaming that on the sun? Huh???

My post contains coherent sentences and correct grammar.  I don't consistently use the wrong words.  Your dog is smarter than you are. You're (you are) trolling, please go back to sleep.

[Solarflaretracker200]

3 minutes ago, Compuw22c said:

My post contains coherent sentences and correct grammar.  I don't consistently use the wrong words.  Your dog is smarter than you are. You're (you are) trolling, please go back to sleep.

You know what? Give me five reasons how my dog is smarter than me…?

[Jesterface23]

If you are going to track simple observations one thing to do is to use the K Index of local observatories. An example being Alaska reaching the K Indexes of 8 and 9 with the geomagnetic storm a few weeks ago while the Kp Index was 7.

An index of 0 isn't really always 0 in a way. For Fredericksburg and Boulder K0 can have nT fluctuations from 0 to less than 5nT. K1 would be fluctuations from 5nT to under 10nT and the scale becomes exponentially higher to K9 at 500nT+.

[Christopher S.]

10 hours ago, Jesterface23 said:

Some of your observations are potentially flawed, so it would be what factors are good and which factors may need changed. Data is good, if you have the correct data.

I will echo this, considering the current line of discussion

1 hour ago, Compuw22c said:

What I mean by that is, in the afternoon as the sun is off to the West, not only does being in that room feel better (behind the brick wall) but laying with my head closer TO that brick wall, as if to be in the "shade" provided by that brick wall,

With no judgment, I will say that your steadfast and defensive "publication" of this statement is probably the only real matter of concern here. I am saying this not to chop you down, although that seems to be the only outcome of any discussion like this.

You may be clinging too firmly to your belief of things, not realizing the value of understanding and reality. Clearly, you value it so far as to validate your beliefs with fact-based information in a science-driven community, so I really and honestly commend you for being here at all and being confident enough to share.

I will answer your confidence with sincere compassion and urge you to think about whether what I have you quoted as saying is absurd or not - does it look absurd? Is it true? Is there anything really here? - those are the critical questions, and you should try at least to answer them.

[Sam Warfel]

3 hours ago, David Silver said:These can affect me without even getting into GP1 or above.

I assume you mean G1? KP and G are separate, no GP

[Compuw22c]

1 hour ago, Christopher S. said:

I will echo this, considering the current line of discussion

With no judgment, I will say that your steadfast and defensive "publication" of this statement is probably the only real matter of concern here. I am saying this not to chop you down, although that seems to be the only outcome of any discussion like this.

You may be clinging too firmly to your belief of things, not realizing the value of understanding and reality. Clearly, you value it so far as to validate your beliefs with fact-based information in a science-driven community, so I really and honestly commend you for being here at all and being confident enough to share.

I will answer your confidence with sincere compassion and urge you to think about whether what I have you quoted as saying is absurd or not - does it look absurd? Is it true? Is there anything really here? - those are the critical questions, and you should try at least to answer them.

I don't disagree that it sounds absurd on the face of it.  If I was the type to be looking for some odd conspiracy theory, sure.  But I wasn't "looking" for some explanation for the way I feel, I "stumbled" upon it. 

I understand that others will see this as far-fetched.  I would have thought the exact same thing a few years ago.  What I would bring up though, is the reality is that we are all constantly standing in front of a giant nuclear reactor spewing both particle radiation and X-rays out into the solar system.  And I understand that under normal circumstances, our planet's magnetic field does protect us.

That all being said, if I lived across the street from a nuclear reactor with inadequate shielding, emitting X-rays and particle radiation, I would likely feel better sitting behind 2 brick walls rather than just 1. 

"Officially", we do acknowledge cosmic radiation as something to be somewhat concerned or at least aware of, particularly for frequent flyers, pregnant women, and people with "at-risk" medical conditions.  And most acknowledge that the amount of risk varies over time based on activity of the sun, and possibly the state of our planet's magnetic field.  I don't think it's 100% out of the question that some individuals may be more sensitive to it even at the earth's surface.

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/radiation/air_travel.html

EDIT: My goal here is not to yell "The sky is definitely falling".  I found a thread asking "Hey, did you guys hear a sound?".  To which my reply is "Yeah, I did hear something quiet, but I did hear something".  Additionally, I don't feel my symptoms are anywhere near the same magnitude as David Silver's.  But what he mentions, I do notice a bit.  Hope that helps.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Compuw22c

[Archmonoth]

On 11/27/2021 at 12:06 PM, David Silver said:

"Belief is the end of intelligence" Robert Anton Wilson.

@Archmonoth The question is simple, and I need you to answer it to continue a logical conversation. I currently have no idea what your position or goal is here:

Is Heliobiology pseudoscience, or is my experience pseudoscience? We are trying to be beholden to facts and reality here, correct? Which is it? I need to understand what you are trying to say since you are SO compelled to "participate".

 

It's pretty simple: I like the ideas, but have yet to come to a common ground with you. I accept the Sun burns us, provides chemicals through various processes, and may have all sorts of unknown effects on us. However, I don't accept everything as a data point, or accept every link you post as fact. 

 

If someone else post that they think the power issues in Texas is related to solar activity, I will share what I know or think, or ask why they think the power outages in Texas are solar related. Just because it's posted in a Heliobiology thread doesn't mean it is solar related. 

 

My observation about pseudo-science is that when an idea can't be falsified, or have a method of saying "this is not solar related" it comes across as superstitious. I'm not saying its false. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying that because it has an unfalsifiable quality, it treads upon a different landscape; superstition. 

 

6 hours ago, Compuw22c said:

Once the sun sets, I feel better overall throughout the house.

 

Can you define "feeling better" with more detail? The vagueness of your statement could mean anything. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Archmonoth

[Solarflaretracker200]

This tread makes no sense 

[David Silver]

@Compuw22cdo us all a favor, and lets not use this thread for personal testimonials. It is not the goal and is not helping anyone discuss this topic with any semblance of logic. That will only attract a full blown tinfoil hat brigade. Please find and share actual scientific research here, and avoid subjective experience and opinions, so this topic has a remote chance of being discussed.
My simple position is: 1. Heliobiology is a known branch of medical research 2. I am a hypersensitive person who saw correlation, then causation with my ongoing health issues 3. this may be of increasing relevance to a wider group of people as the Earth's em field shields us less each decade.

Quote

”Heliobiology  (sometimes referred to as cosmobiology, heliomedicine or clinical cosmobiology in the literature) is a new branch of science that deals with the influences on human health caused by solar activity and investigates the possible mechanisms to explain the reported associations.

Over the last 20 years, heliobiology has become a subject of interest that has attracted scientists from various disciplines. Numerous studies have been carried out, and the evidences suggest that space weather activity has a broad range of adverse effects on human health, such as mental illness, cardiovascular mortality, and neurological system diseases [14-16].

Although contradictions have been found between these studies, this field of research has become increasingly important in the present context of a consistent weakening of the Earth’s magnetic field.”

BioMed Science

 

[David Silver]

 

We may sometimes think of the Sun's influence as somehow "ending" at the upper atmosphere, or only resulting in aurora, but in fact we humans are influenced by constantly changing energy. Not only can geomagnetic disturbance from increased solar output sometimes be a health problem, on the flip side when solar activity is lower, we also have increased COSMIC RAAYYS.

 

Journal of Basic and Clinical Physiology and Pharmacology

Volume 26 Issue 2

"High neutron activity deserves more attention when analyzing space effects on human health and their mechanism of action."

 

Neutrons are our way of measuring cosmic ray impact on the surface of Earth. These levels are highest when KP is 0 and the Earth's electromagnetic field is shielding us the least. On most days, the em field and atmosphere shields people at sea level from the majority of the primary and secondary "rays" (which are actually particles), but the Earth's em field can be quite variable. As we progress into the solar cycle, the em field should increase in response to the solar output and shield us more effectively and more often. 

 

However, on average, "about one low-energy (about 10^10 electronvolts) cosmic ray strikes per square meter per second. Higher-energy ones, about 10^15 eV, strike one square meter every year.

 

"Within our solar system, the solar wind modulates the flux of galactic cosmic rays over an approximate 11-year cycle with an intensity that is inversely correlated with solar activity. During phases of higher solar activity, the Galactic Cosmic Ray intensity is at a minimum, whereas at solar minimum, the GCR intensity is maximal. At solar maximum, the cosmic ray flux is decreased by a factor of 3 to 4 compared to solar minimum."

 

"Cosmic rays of all energies are, essentially, horrible for humans and their objects. They can disrupt electronics and mess up digital cameras. As a form of ionizing radiation, they can have a variety of health consequences, according to NASA. They can generate reactive oxygenated species inside cells, (free radicals) which at high levels can stress cells and lead them to cell suicide, introduce DNA mutations, and spark replication errors..."

Edited November 30, 2021 by David Silver

[GuyFierisFridge]

Hi, I made an account just to hopefully provide some unbiased data to this discussion. I'm not a space weather expert so apologies in advance if I use incorrect wording or generalizations!

Prior to and during the geomagnetic storm that occurred around Halloween 2021, I set up a Geiger Muller Counter, which records x-ray, gamma, beta, and alpha radiation via counts per minute (the frequency of a particle making contact with the tube). My particular model is unable to differentiate between radiation types but I presume the count would increase in the event of a geomagnetic storm regardless of the type of event? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Geiger counters are not perfect, and the orientation as well as background interference can affect the results, as well as my location relative to the areas affected by the storm. Background levels pre-storm (or what I believe was pre-storm) were ~8-22 cpm and I did not notice a significant increase or other changes throughout the night, despite visual changes noted in the sky (I did not see the aurora but some dim red-green oscillating colors that might've been airglow). I have not run any statistical analysis on the data, however, just glanced over it, so perhaps there is a statistically significant difference that I couldnt see.

The data is available here, taken from 10/31 to 11/1 (ignore the ACPM, which is average of all data, if comparing temporal data): https://www.gmcmap.com/historyData.asp?Param_ID=59345767789

Date is Eastern Standard Time and data is in CPM, collected in Massachusetts. I plan to set it up again when there is very low activity and keep it going to get some more thorough data, which would be available at the same link above. That website also has data from other people with Geiger Counters from the same brand, but it is not very user friendly and some people use their counters for different things (I got mine originally to test some rocks for uranium and to bring with me to an old WW2 base) but might be worth taking a look at because higher latitudes would probably show a more pronounced difference in CPM between solar events!

Again, in theory, a solar event in which radiation travels toward the Earth would result in a higher CPM from the Geiger Counter if the solar event was significant enough to increase radiation at ground level. It has its limitations, but all studies do!

[Jesterface23]

1 hour ago, David Silver said:

 according to NASA

Are We Protected from Space Radiation on Earth?

Yes, but not entirely. Life on Earth is protected from the full impact of solar and cosmic radiation by the magnetic fields that surround the Earth and by the Earth’s atmosphere. The Earth also has radiation belts caused by its magnetic field. The inner radiation belt, or Van Allen Belt, consists of ionizing radiation in the form of very energetic protons—by-products of collisions between GCR and atoms of Earth’s atmosphere. The outer radiation belts contain protons and electrons. As we travel farther from Earth’s protective shields we are exposed to the full radiation spectrum and its damaging effects.

In addition to a protective atmosphere, we are also lucky that Earth has a magnetic field. It shields us from the full effects of the solar wind and GCR. Without this protection, Earth’s biosphere might not exist as it does today, or would at least be limited to the subsurface. 

[Christopher S.]

On 11/28/2021 at 7:51 PM, Compuw22c said:

I don't disagree that it sounds absurd on the face of it.  If I was the type to be looking for some odd conspiracy theory, sure.  But I wasn't "looking" for some explanation for the way I feel, I "stumbled" upon it. 

I understand that others will see this as far-fetched.  I would have thought the exact same thing a few years ago.  What I would bring up though, is the reality is that we are all constantly standing in front of a giant nuclear reactor spewing both particle radiation and X-rays out into the solar system.  And I understand that under normal circumstances, our planet's magnetic field does protect us.

That all being said, if I lived across the street from a nuclear reactor with inadequate shielding, emitting X-rays and particle radiation, I would likely feel better sitting behind 2 brick walls rather than just 1. 

"Officially", we do acknowledge cosmic radiation as something to be somewhat concerned or at least aware of, particularly for frequent flyers, pregnant women, and people with "at-risk" medical conditions.  And most acknowledge that the amount of risk varies over time based on activity of the sun, and possibly the state of our planet's magnetic field.  I don't think it's 100% out of the question that some individuals may be more sensitive to it even at the earth's surface.

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/radiation/air_travel.html

EDIT: My goal here is not to yell "The sky is definitely falling".  I found a thread asking "Hey, did you guys hear a sound?".  To which my reply is "Yeah, I did hear something quiet, but I did hear something".  Additionally, I don't feel my symptoms are anywhere near the same magnitude as David Silver's.  But what he mentions, I do notice a bit.  Hope that helps.

Wow, I now completely understand where you're coming from. You did an excellent job explaining yourself and the points you're trying to make. It did help and thank you.

David, you've also explained your position very well. I reckon the less noise you make from here, the better it will be for everyone, including yourself. Really, take a break from worrying for a little while and power through the BS.

[Solarflaretracker200]

On 11/29/2021 at 7:23 PM, Jesterface23 said:

Are We Protected from Space Radiation on Earth?

I would say just by looking at the title, yes. Yes we are safe from space radiation. 

[Archmonoth]

On 11/28/2021 at 6:51 PM, Compuw22c said:

EDIT: My goal here is not to yell "The sky is definitely falling".  I found a thread asking "Hey, did you guys hear a sound?".  To which my reply is "Yeah, I did hear something quiet, but I did hear something".  Additionally, I don't feel my symptoms are anywhere near the same magnitude as David Silver's.  But what he mentions, I do notice a bit.  Hope that helps.

Then why do you think your symptoms are Solar related? I appreciate your explanation, yet I don't understand how you decided they were related to solar activity. 

[Sam Warfel]

3 hours ago, Archmonoth said:

Then why do you think your symptoms are Solar related? I appreciate your explanation, yet I don't understand how you decided they were related to solar activity. 

Correlation, I think he says.

I'm yet to be convinced the correlations aren't confirmation bias, however.

[Marcardo]

 

On 11/30/2021 at 3:23 AM, Jesterface23 said:

Are We Protected from Space Radiation on Earth?

gamma ray burst

[Sam Warfel]

6 hours ago, Marcardo said:

 

gamma ray burst

Uhhh that’s just a name of a phenomenon. Are you implying we are or aren’t protected from those? What are you trying to say?

[David Silver]

The heliosheath protects us from most extra-solar objects, particles, rays and such...until it doesn't. A "nearby" gamma ray burst could potentially be a problem but is highly unlikely in our lifetime.

This thread is devolving. The only thing more tedious than trying to convince someone about something they don't believe in, is reading that "conversation" on the internet.

You are confirming your bias when you arrogantly pose an an expert with half a paragraph or cherry-picked quote on a topic you've barely read about.

I've summarized multiple times above how most people are not affected by geomagnetic disturbance and solar weather.  A small minority of people with an unfortunate pre-existing hypersensitivity are more likely affected.

The far-more-interesting purpose of this thread is to share and discuss the current scientific research on the topic of heliobiolgogy, as it pertains to human electrophysiology and magnetoreception, rather than personal investigations and ego flexing. (Besides, arguing whether you believe in Heliobiology is as smart as arguing you don't believe in Astronomy. Its not a matter of opinion. No one asked you either. Go talk to someone else somewhere else about something else.)

So, how about lets try talking about the studies: what do you think about this research?

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805718/

2. https://biomedscis.com/pdf/OAJBS.ID.000203.pdf

3. https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/atmosphere/atmosphere-12-00346/article_deploy/atmosphere-12-00346-v2.pdf

4.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S001393512101361X

“Increased solar activity and geomagnetic disturbances are associated with significant decreases in peripheral leukocytes.

The associations remained similar after controlling for ambient air pollution.

Melatonin secretion and nervous system dysregulation are the hypothesized mechanisms of this association”

Edited December 7, 2021 by David Silver

[Solarflaretracker200]

Man shut up. 

[Archmonoth]

6 hours ago, David Silver said:

This thread is devolving....

....So, how about lets try talking about the studies: what do you think about this research?

When the Lunar Effect is presented as scientific fact (earlier in the thread), it hasn't devolved very far. 

 

However, it's nice to see you are attempting to separate personal experiences from scientific studies. 

 

Link 1: The study has only 16 participants. The study also assumes terrorist attacks are linked to Solar activity, which is highly presumptuous, since it involves many systems which are not measured. (Global politics, culture, religious history, induvial choices etc.) 

 

Link 2:  Seems like a meta-abstract of other referenced studies, rather than a study itself. It mentions hospital cases during higher peaks of activity, which could have a point, but such studies have many uncontrolled variables from external human systems like paychecks, stress increases from work related activities, politics etc. Doing meta-analysis of correlations between space weather and 1 aspect of a human civilization demands higher resolution of studies, rather than conclusions. 

 

Link 3: The pdf had a lot to read, so perhaps I missed some of it. The possibility is explored, and blood pressure seems the most durable/plausible to testing. However, the study says "The task of systematic comparison and synthesis of the available results is greatly complicated by the variability of the approaches and formats used for describing space weather factors." This quote is honest and echoes much of my observation of the other studies. This 3rd link was robust, and I enjoyed reading it, thanks! 

 

Link 4: The changes in white blood cells seems plausible, and the study attempts to separate pollution as a variable, which seems like a good point to me. Also, the human immune system changes all the time, from sleep (or lack of sleep) diet, etc. 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Archmonoth

[Solarflaretracker200]

16 minutes ago, David Silver said:

This thread is devolving

Your point is…?

[Jesterface23]

Post to assist or make progress. Not.. you know what.

[Solarflaretracker200]

14 hours ago, Marcardo said:

gamma ray burst

Ok. What about it?