AR13089

[Vancanneyt Sander]

What I usually do is download Both HMI imagery and import them in photoshop (you can use Gimp as a free alternative photo editor). Drag one image onto the other (it will create  the imported image as a new layer) and align it. Then zoom to the region you want to inspect for deltas. On the top layer, change opacity of the layer to see the image below it so you can compare them both and mark any deltas with the text and drawing tools. Crop the image and you can export the images to a file.

[Philalethes]

43 minutes ago, Vancanneyt Sander said:

What I usually do is download Both HMI imagery and import them in photoshop (you can use Gimp as a free alternative photo editor). Drag one image onto the other (it will create  the imported image as a new layer) and align it. Then zoom to the region you want to inspect for deltas. On the top layer, change opacity of the layer to see the image below it so you can compare them both and mark any deltas with the text and drawing tools. Crop the image and you can export the images to a file.

Yep, that's pretty much what my first thought was too when I wanted to see both layers compared; I found that with the gif transitions you get the best of both worlds, so I settled on that approach, but you can get a pretty good idea by taking a single image at a specific opacity over the other as you describe. If I want to write/draw on the image I do indeed use an editor for that after I've generated the gif.

Also, I guess it depends on how actively you want to be making these comparisons too. I quickly went to automating it because I prefer being able to monitor spots actively now that there's more activity, especially in promising regions; if you only check every once in a while then it's not as burdensome to download and edit the images by hand, naturally.

EDIT:

Actually, now that I think about it, having a single frame in the middle of the transition at the right opacity to look at could be more useful in some contexts, so I might as well add a line to grab a frame from the gif after I generate it.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Philalethes Bythos

[MinYoongi]

28 minutes ago, Vancanneyt Sander said:

What I usually do is download Both HMI imagery and import them in photoshop (you can use Gimp as a free alternative photo editor). Drag one image onto the other (it will create  the imported image as a new layer) and align it. Then zoom to the region you want to inspect for deltas. On the top layer, change opacity of the layer to see the image below it so you can compare them both and mark any deltas with the text and drawing tools. Crop the image and you can export the images to a file.

Thank you, this sounds very easy! 

 

 

The region is getting a bit more complex

[Sam Warfel]

1 hour ago, MinYoongi said:

I dont know if that can be called a delta yet.. @Orneno opinion?  youre the delta sniffer  

Nah I’m not that good at that 😅

What I usually do is go to this screen on the SWL app (tap a sunspot number in the list of ARs, scroll down, and then tap one of its images), you can tap back and forth between the two views very quickly so you can see how they align. 

[MinYoongi]

7 minutes ago, Orneno said:

Nah I’m not that good at that 😅

What I usually do is go to this screen on the SWL app (tap a sunspot number in the list of ARs, scroll down, and then tap one of its images), you can tap back and forth between the two views very quickly so you can see how they align. 

Yup that does it too

[Sam Warfel]

It’s not as good as those fancy gifs PB makes, but it works well enough for me 

[Vancanneyt Sander]

15 minuten geleden, Orneno zei:

Nah I’m not that good at that 😅

What I usually do is go to this screen on the SWL app (tap a sunspot number in the list of ARs, scroll down, and then tap one of its images), you can tap back and forth between the two views very quickly so you can see how they align. 

I do that too when I’m on mobile and no desktop nearby 😜

[Sam Warfel]

1 hour ago, Vancanneyt Sander said:

I do that too when I’m on mobile and no desktop nearby 😜

I assumed that was an intentional part of the design. Speaking of which, what if there was a third option, “compare” or something, that just overlaid the two images with an opacity fade? It would be really useful, but may be hard to do, idk 

[MinYoongi]

Do these Pictures get updated only once daily?

[mozy]

This is how I've been doing the whole time, I find it super smooth 😎

https://streamable.com/g7bpu9

[MinYoongi]

36 minutes ago, mozy said:

This is how I've been doing the whole time, I find it super smooth 😎

https://streamable.com/g7bpu9

I do it exactly like that too but sometimes i have problems when its not 100% aligned and i really like the layer gifs. Much easier for a noob like me

[MinYoongi]

Does the region have a delta now? It looks like they share a penumbra but not too close? If yes, only one? (Left one) @Philalethes Bythos

[Landon Moeller]

7 minutes ago, MinYoongi said:

Does the region have a delta now? It looks like they share a penumbra but not too close? If yes, only one? (Left one) @Philalethes Bythos

It looks like 3089 is now considered beta-delta on SWL. There has been some regrowth back in between leader and trailer spots since yesterday, so not surprising. Should see confirmation in NOAA’s 29/0030UTC Forecast Discussion shortly. 

[MinYoongi]

1 minute ago, Landon Moeller said:

It looks like 3089 is now considered beta-delta on SWL. There has been some regrowth back in between leader and trailer spots since yesterday, so not surprising. Should see confirmation in NOAA’s 29/0030UTC Forecast Discussion shortly. 

But is there only one delta? (Just searching for confirmation to see if im learning 😄)

 

Btw: how can we see or tell how much magnetic shear (?) A region has?

[Landon Moeller]

1 minute ago, MinYoongi said:

But is there only one delta? (Just searching for confirmation to see if im learning 😄)

 

Btw: how can we see or tell how much magnetic shear (?) A region has?

I am thinking trailing region has the delta. Regarding magnetic shear, that is beyond me!

[MinYoongi]

3 minutes ago, Landon Moeller said:

I am thinking trailing region has the delta. Regarding magnetic shear, that is beyond me!

Thats fair. I even remember asking this a few times already and still not grasping it when it got explained 😅😅

[Yak]

Do you think this region could produce an X flare? Also what are your thoughts about the regions farside on this map.

http://jsoc.stanford.edu/data/farside/

[Solarflaretracker200]

This region is active, and with the chances, maybe. 

[MinYoongi]

its getting more complex but i wouldnt say its toooo complex as of now. its popping c flares and thats cool.

 

we have a thread for incoming regions @Yak its called "incoming regions"  

there we discuss farside imagery

[Quantum]

Hey there, I'm no expert, in fact, I just found this site yesterday while nerding out with a friend of mine about the weird sunspot, lol, but from what I know and what I think I'm understanding from all of the very helpful people explaining the general concepts in this thread...there's potential for a delta any area where the blue and red regions are closely interacting, and I'm guessing that the more clearly defined the area in between, the more likely it is to be considered a "delta."

I took the liberty of creating an account and marking up a copy of one of the previously shared photos! I could be wrong, so take it with a grain of salt, but this is what I was thinking based on what the others in the thread were saying.  Hope this helps!  

Edited August 29, 2022 by Quantum

[Philalethes]

7 hours ago, MinYoongi said:

Does the region have a delta now? It looks like they share a penumbra but not too close? If yes, only one? (Left one) @Philalethes Bythos

At the time you wrote that, I would say it did, the same one I mentioned previously (indeed the two significant spots of different polarities to the left). From what it looks like now, I'd say that's even clearer:

4 hours ago, Quantum said:

Hey there, I'm no expert, in fact, I just found this site yesterday while nerding out with a friend of mine about the weird sunspot, lol, but from what I know and what I think I'm understanding from all of the very helpful people explaining the general concepts in this thread...there's potential for a delta any area where the blue and red regions are closely interacting, and I'm guessing that the more clearly defined the area in between, the more likely it is to be considered a "delta."

I took the liberty of creating an account and marking up a copy of one of the previously shared photos! I could be wrong, so take it with a grain of salt, but this is what I was thinking based on what the others in the thread were saying.  Hope this helps!  

More or less, yes; however, it seems that the more significant and lasting delta regions form in places where either of the polarities are isolated from a nearby large region of the same polarity, and until they start developing umbrae it's hard to tell whether anything will happen at all. On your image, the very leftmost marking and the one second from right on the bottom both lack umbrae, and are still relatively well connected to their respective polarities, so I'd say they're not as likely to develop into deltas, but the bottom one could be "cut off" and perhaps do so. The marking to the very bottom right is some of the little that's left of a larger positive "orphan penumbra" (penumbra not attached to any umbra, generally larger such regions as far as I'm aware of the term being used) that was more significant previously, but which you can still see on the intensitygram (see some of the images I provided earlier in the thread to see this more clearly). The marking on the top right, which you've encircled, seems indeed to be the better candidate for a developing delta, since the positive spot has developed a small umbra, and is closed off by smaller negative spots to the left. The marking you've made to the left of that, between the two significant regions of different polarities right next to each other, is a full-fledged delta by every definition as far as I can tell; they are two umbrae of different polarity within a single penumbra (some definitions require the umbrae to be within 2 degrees of each other too, and while I don't know exactly how close that is on this image I believe they are close enough to satisfy this criterion too).

My assessment:

Edited August 29, 2022 by Philalethes Bythos

[MinYoongi]

Noaa calling this beta gamma now. Anyone know why? Or noaa just stupid again?

[Quantum]

Ah, ok, so then if I'm understanding correctly, the more clearly defined the region's (+) (-) (+) or (-) (+) (-) configuration is, the more likely it is to develop into a more powerful and longer lasting delta. Ok, that makes sense to me. That was largely in line with what I was thinking, thanks for confirming/clarifying! It helps me understand how "hard" the regions of opposing polarities would have to be to be considered a delta, from context I'm guessing it's related to what you're referring to as "penumbra." 

This is all great info, thanks for sharing! 

-Quantum 

[Philalethes]

1 hour ago, MinYoongi said:

Noaa calling this beta gamma now. Anyone know why? Or noaa just stupid again?

I find that odd; maybe they have their reasons, maybe they don't. Seems like a textbook delta to me. In fact, I've seen a lot of illustrations of deltas that are much less obvious: smaller, farther apart, and with a weaker penumbra. I'd say they've got it mixed up here.

1 hour ago, Quantum said:

Ah, ok, so then if I'm understanding correctly, the more clearly defined the region's (+) (-) (+) or (-) (+) (-) configuration is, the more likely it is to develop into a more powerful and longer lasting delta. Ok, that makes sense to me. That was largely in line with what I was thinking, thanks for confirming/clarifying! It helps me understand how "hard" the regions of opposing polarities would have to be to be considered a delta, from context I'm guessing it's related to what you're referring to as "penumbra." 

This is all great info, thanks for sharing! 

-Quantum 

Sometimes the configurations aren't that straightforward, but yes, for that type of configuration I'd say that sounds about right, although it can be tricky to define what "clearly defined" really means, and what the threshold for it is.

As for how "hard" the regions have to be, it is indeed related to what's known as the umbrae and the penumbrae; the umbrae are the black spots on the intensitygram, while the penumbrae are the deep orange filamentary structures surrounding them, in contrast to the rest of the image which is more yellow. You can make out the difference very easily when you look at the intensitygram.

These don't necessarily show up that clearly on the magnetogram, which is the colored one you posted, hence why comparing the two is useful so you both get a view of where the umbrae and penumbrae are located, as well as what the polarities are at the different points.

The textbook definition of a delta is (at least the definition this site is operating with):

Quote

The umbrae of opposite polarity in a single penumbra.

In other words, wherever you can see two umbrae on the intensitygram inside a single penumbra, and those two umbrae are of different polarity as per the magnetogram, that's a delta.

As for the surrounding information to spot or predict what could potentially become a delta or remain a delta for longer, that's not as clear, and still involves a lot of guesswork at this point. Turns out magnetohydrodynamics is complex stuff.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Philalethes Bythos

[Newbie]

31 minutes ago, Philalethes Bythos said:

I find that odd; maybe they have their reasons, maybe they don't. Seems like a textbook delta to me. In fact, I've seen a lot of illustrations of deltas that are much less obvious: smaller, farther apart, and with a weaker penumbra. I'd say they've got it mixed up here.

Sometimes the configurations aren't that straightforward, but yes, for that type of configuration I'd say that sounds about right, although it can be tricky to define what "clearly defined" really means, and what the threshold for it is.

As for how "hard" the regions have to be, it is indeed related to what's known as the umbrae and the penumbrae; the umbrae are the black spots on the intensitygram, while the penumbrae are the deep orange filamentary structures surrounding them, in contrast to the rest of the image which is more yellow. You can make out the difference very easily when you look at the intensitygram.

These don't necessarily show up that clearly on the magnetogram, which is the colored one you posted, hence why comparing the two is useful so you both get a view of where the umbrae and penumbrae are located, as well as what the polarities are at the different points.

The textbook definition of a delta is (at least the definition this site is operating with):

In other words, wherever you can see two umbrae on the intensitygram inside a single penumbra, and those two umbrae are of different polarity as per the magnetogram, that's a delta.

As for the surrounding information to spot or predict what could potentially become a delta or remain a delta for longer, that's not as clear, and still involves a lot of guesswork at this point. Turns out magnetohydrodynamics is complex stuff.

Yeah it's definitely a delta

N

Edited August 29, 2022 by Newbie