mozy Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 Developing a second delta now. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarflaretracker200 Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 1 hour ago, mozy said: Developing a second delta now. Nice, let's hope it keeps developing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildWill Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 In my telescope, with a diagonal, and the tube turned 90*, the image you see is reversed horizontally. So East is East and West is West. So if you are used to looking at it here - ya go to the scope and 3190 is on the left side. Looks like it's just coming in off the limb... I have another image train that mirrors both horizontally and Vertically. Get yer eyes crossed looking back and forth to sdo images. Seeong was really good, even with the wind. Lots of filaments today. Ot was nice viewing. There were a few loops just to the north of 3190. They were bright. We must still have C + flux.. Cheers WnA 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozy Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 Shear is increasing, activity might start picking up soon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Warfel Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 I hope this doesn’t go like exactly one week ago, when 3186 developed a nice strong delta that then faded away without any flaring… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildWill Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 7 hours ago, Solarflaretracker200 said: Not much though I saw plent of really cool stuff today… 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philalethes Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 8 hours ago, mozy said: Developing a second delta now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildWill Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Philalethes Bythos said: “Delta Number 2” as you’ve referred to it appears to me to have its own penumbra, just pushing up toward the big spot. Picking deltas is somewhat of an art form and even trained experts can disagree… Having said that, if No. 2 were to lose its penumbra as its is absorbed into the penumbra of the larger spot. Possibilities, but not yet. I think there’s some action starting to take place in the southern region, at least it looked that way to me. Cheers. WnA ;-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesterface23 Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Well, Friday's CME seems to have arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozy Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Oh boy this region is growing rapidly now.. Just in time for the limb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfFeralHuman Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 I just noticed something rather odd about 3190 showing up on the HMI dopplergram. The region seems to be slowly oscillating between moving rapidly towards and rapidly away with a period of ~24 hours, with a marked active spot in the centre. I haven't seen this before and I've no idea what the significance is. I just found it curious, especially given how interesting this region's been in general. PS: The dopplergram isn't on this site, guess there's usually nothing interesting to see from it, but it can be found on nasa.gov at https://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/data/aiahmi/. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarflaretracker200 Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 3 hours ago, mozy said: Oh boy this region is growing rapidly now.. Just in time for the limb Always on the limb of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philalethes Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, WildWill said: “Delta Number 2” as you’ve referred to it appears to me to have its own penumbra, just pushing up toward the big spot. Picking deltas is somewhat of an art form and even trained experts can disagree… Having said that, if No. 2 were to lose its penumbra as its is absorbed into the penumbra of the larger spot. Possibilities, but not yet. I think there’s some action starting to take place in the southern region, at least it looked that way to me. Well, I wasn't the one who posted the first picture, just the funny one. That being said, it's not that spots need to "lose their penumbrae" to end up as deltas, they still retain their own penumbrae; I believe this was already cleared up previously. In the cases of small spots next to large ones it will of course look like the penumbra of the large one "engulfs" the small one, but that's not a necessary characteristic for delta classification, just that the penumbrae are merged together sufficiently to appear as a single penumbra. Look e.g. at the example of the classification page on this site: As you can see, the two prominent deltas have spots of roughly equal size, so none of those spots have "lost their penumbra" at all, their penumbrae are just merged together to the point where it looks like a single penumbra on the intensitygram, which is the criterion for considering them deltas. Edited January 23, 2023 by Philalethes Bythos 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildWill Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 My understanding is that a delta sunspot is one wherein, two spots of opposite polarity share a single penumbra. A spot can pop up inside the penumbra of opposite polarity. A spot can be pushed up against the penumbra of another - and lose its penumbra as it is absorbed by the other spots penumbra. Source Daystarfilters.com: DELTA GROUPS: Deltas are some of the largest and most active areas on the sun. The Delta is defined as two or more umbrae of opposite polarity which are inside a single penumbra or penumbral area. The opposite polarities are generally within two degrees of each other. Deltas usually form in one of three ways. A single complex emerges at once with the dipoles intertwined and polarities reversed from the Hale-Nicholson rules (ie: (f) polarity leading (p)). This is sometimes known as an "Island Delta" group. Large satellite polarity areas emerge close to existing spots so that the expansion of the emerging flux region pushes a p spot into an f spot or vice versa. A growing bipolar spot group collides with another separate dipole so that opposite polarities are pushed together (this is the most frequent mode of delta group formation). It only forms from emerging umbrae, not plage. If the new dipole emerges into plage only, modest flares may occur without delta spot group formation. If it emerges under or collides with an umbra of opposite polarity, the delta spot forms and larger flares occur. If the dipole collides with an umbra of the same polarity, the two do not necessarily merge, but coexist peacefully. DELTA GROUP CHARACTERISTICS: Usually, Deltas show most of the following features: Delta groups are almost always large, and 90% of those with inverted polarity have a high level of activity, especially in the occurrence of major flares. They often have a complex, irregular, or "broken" umbral look. Delta groups form by joining opposite polarity spots from different dipoles, which are connected by sheared magnetic field lines, instead of direct (free space) lines of force. All the spots are inside the same penumbral area. Delta spots rarely last more than one solar rotation and are somewhat shorter-lived than other spots of the same size (however, new delta spots may emerge in the same complex). Delta spot polarity orientation is generally inverted as compared to the Hale-Nicholson Rules. Delta spots do not usually separate, but die out locked together (rarely, umbrae are ejected from the group). Active Delta regions are usually marked by bright H-Alpha emission especially when it occurs over umbrae marking continued flux emergence. Sometimes, a filament can be seen coming out of, or crossing the group. ————————————————— end There is also some good information about Delta classification of sunspots right here on this site. https://www.spaceweatherlive.com/en/help/the-magnetic-classification-of-sunspots.html The spot shown had its own penumbra at the time of the photo. The penumbrae are just starting to touch. The definition states very clearly, share a single penumbra. It may be pulled into the umbra of the dominant spot (opposites attract…), in doing so, it loses its penumbra. The penumbra of the dominant spot then contains both umbrae. When they (deltas) are formed by being “pushed” together, one loses its penumbra as they merge. They share a single penumbra. They also must be less than 2* apart. There is a piece in “Insightful Reading”, written by Newbie which provides some additional details regarding magnetic complexity and delta spots. Having said that, as I pointed out earlier, picking deltas is an art form and often “experts” even disagree on classification of specific sunspots. I maintain that the spot in question was not a delta at the time the image was taken. To, me, I see that it has its own penumbra and is barely touching the penumbra of the leading spot. Agree or disagree, neither of us are even experts… Cheers. WnA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philalethes Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, WildWill said: My understanding is that a delta sunspot is one wherein, two spots of opposite polarity share a single penumbra. A spot can pop up inside the penumbra of opposite polarity. A spot can be pushed up against the penumbra of another - and lose its penumbra as it is absorbed by the other spots penumbra. The first part there is indeed correct. The second part is not correct, spots never really "lose their penumbrae"; sometimes their penumbrae are dwarfed by much larger spots so that they're hardly visible, but they never really lose them. When a small spot emerges inside the penumbra of a much larger one of opposite polarity, that's essentially what's happening. As you can see in the images I showed above, from the classification page, the deltas there have spots of roughly equal size, and thus very clearly retain their own penumbrae, but they are still deltas, because on the intensitygram they appear to be situated inside a single penumbra. As was pointed out to you last time this discussion occurred, it's the "sharing a single penumbra part" that is confusing you; that just means that their penumbrae appear as a single penumbra in the intensitygram, i.e. that there's no separation between the penumbrae. Edited January 23, 2023 by Philalethes Bythos 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildWill Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 4 minutes ago, Philalethes Bythos said: The first part there is indeed correct. The second part is not correct, spots never really "lose their penumbrae"; sometimes their penumbrae are dwarfed by much larger spots so that they're hardly visible, but they never really lose them. When a small spot emerges inside the penumbra of a much larger one of opposite polarity, that's essentially what's happening. As you can see in the images I showed above, from the classification page, the deltas there have spots of roughly equal size, and thus very clearly retain their own penumbrae, but they are still deltas, because on the intensitygram they appear to be situated inside a single penumbra. As was pointed out to you last time this discussion occurred, it's the "sharing a single penumbra part" that is confusing you; that just means that their penumbrae appear as a single penumbra in the intensitygram, i.e. that there's no separation between the penumbrae. A delta a pair of spots of opposite polarity sharing a single penumbra. Gonna tell me that’s not true? lol. Another beautiful day, gotta go, gotta go, Sol calls me. I’ll let ya know if she pops off any nice flares in 3190, which has been a bit of a disappointment thus far, in my opinion… Agree or disagree, matters not to me… Cheers 13 minutes ago, Solarflaretracker200 said: You know you can just read it here: https://www.spaceweatherlive.com/en/help/the-magnetic-classification-of-sunspots.html nvm everyone ignore this lmao If ya read my post, you will find the link you posted to the help here on this website, I had already included in my post… But thank you… Sun’s out… gotta go, gotta go! Cheers WnA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post 3gMike Posted January 23, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, WildWill said: A delta a pair of spots of opposite polarity sharing a single penumbra. Gonna tell me that’s not true? lol. Hi Will, Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding your stance on this, but I believe that it is possible to reconcile this difference of opinion. Firstly, you are correctly describing the generally accepted definition of a delta spot. I think the difficulty arises because the terms umbra and penumbra are used in both the magnetic and the visual domains, and of course those domains are linked. If you consider it from the magnetic domain it is clear that umbra and penumbra are tied to an individual spot - the umbra being the area of intense vertical flux, and the penumbra being less intense horizontal flux. An image from a NASA website https://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_atob.php#:~:text=Sunspots have a dark%2C central,umbral zone (Figure 2). shows this quite nicely for an individual spot. As PB pointed out in his post above the HMI magnetogram clearly shows the umbra and penumbra of each individual spot - the penumbra being the same polarity as the spot- i.e. neither spot loses its penumbra. The Intensitygram is representing the temperature of each of those elements, and it seems that the magnetic field strength, and hence temperature, of all penumbrae are remarkably similar - almost independent of the field associated with the umbra. Therefore it becomes difficult to differentiate between the penumbra associated with the two spots. I sourced this information here https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/sunspot Kiyoshi Ichimoto, in Spectropolarimetry and Magnetic Structures, 2019 3 Sunspots and Active Regions Sunspots, the most conspicuous solar manifestation of magnetic fields, yielded the first detection of a cosmic magnetic field, carried out by Hale (1908). The global structure of the magnetic field of sunspots was extensively studied in the 20th century under relatively low spatial resolution. In an isolated and round sunspot, the magnetic field is nearly vertical and has a maximum strength of 2000–4000 G at the center. Towards the outer part of the sunspot, the field strength declines and becomes more horizontal in a radial direction; it reaches an approximate elevation of 10–20 degrees from the solar surface at the edge of the sunspot. Remarkably the radial profiles of the field strength and elevation show a smooth transition from the umbra to the penumbra, which is in contrast to the sharp boundary between them, as seen in the continuum. More interesting, the umbra–penumbra boundary in stable sunspots is characterized by an invariant value of the vertical magnetic field component of 1849–1885 G, with the most probable value of 1867 G (Jurcak et al., 2018). About a half of the total magnetic flux emanates from the penumbra. Hoping this helps. Edited January 23, 2023 by 3gMike corrected spelling. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildWill Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Do you see what I see? I can see another delta, possibly 2 in AR13190… anybody wanna go to “show me the delays and play the game? Cheers. WnA —————- I have been lucky enough so far to catch what appeared to be a small flare or filament eruption. One on 13190 and one on the one to the south ? 13194, I think! So cool. Like a lightning bolt going kinda sideways and not really moving… Or it could have been my eyes and wishful thinking, gonna check later. It is a beautiful sun today, gotta go gotta go! WnA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philalethes Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 2 hours ago, WildWill said: Do you see what I see? I can see another delta, possibly 2 in AR13190… anybody wanna go to “show me the delays and play the game? Yep, I see it. The negative polarity on the bottom is very small, though, but it is a delta; and the positive polarity is also loosely connected to the negative group to the right, so it's almost forming a delta that way too, but not quite. Talking about this part, of course: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax Spacex Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) On 1/23/2023 at 1:00 PM, 3gMike said: Hi Will, Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding your stance on this, but I believe that it is possible to reconcile this difference of opinion. Firstly, you are correctly describing the generally accepted definition of a delta spot. I think the difficulty arises because the terms umbra and penumbra are used in both the magnetic and the visual domains, and of course those domains are linked. If you consider it from the magnetic domain it is clear that umbra and penumbra are tied to an individual spot - the umbra being the area of intense vertical flux, and the penumbra being less intense horizontal flux. An image from a NASA website https://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_atob.php#:~:text=Sunspots have a dark%2C central,umbral zone (Figure 2). shows this quite nicely for an individual spot. As PB pointed out in his post above the HMI magnetogram clearly shows the umbra and penumbra of each individual spot - the penumbra being the same polarity as the spot- i.e. neither spot loses its penumbra. The Intensitygram is representing the temperature of each of those elements, and it seems that the magnetic field strength, and hence temperature, of all penumbrae are remarkably similar - almost independent of the field associated with the umbra. Therefore it becomes difficult to differentiate between the penumbra associated with the two spots. I sourced this information here https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/sunspot Kiyoshi Ichimoto, in Spectropolarimetry and Magnetic Structures, 2019 3 Sunspots and Active Regions Sunspots, the most conspicuous solar manifestation of magnetic fields, yielded the first detection of a cosmic magnetic field, carried out by Hale (1908). The global structure of the magnetic field of sunspots was extensively studied in the 20th century under relatively low spatial resolution. In an isolated and round sunspot, the magnetic field is nearly vertical and has a maximum strength of 2000–4000 G at the center. Towards the outer part of the sunspot, the field strength declines and becomes more horizontal in a radial direction; it reaches an approximate elevation of 10–20 degrees from the solar surface at the edge of the sunspot. Remarkably the radial profiles of the field strength and elevation show a smooth transition from the umbra to the penumbra, which is in contrast to the sharp boundary between them, as seen in the continuum. More interesting, the umbra–penumbra boundary in stable sunspots is characterized by an invariant value of the vertical magnetic field component of 1849–1885 G, with the most probable value of 1867 G (Jurcak et al., 2018). About a half of the total magnetic flux emanates from the penumbra. Hoping this helps. It seems to me that if the "hairs" of the penumbra are aligned in the radial direction towards the center of the umbra, then the umbra and penumbra are tightly coupled. Multiple umbra in a broader more amorphous penumbra area may not be so straightforward to associate. The HMI Magnetogram colormap has a range of +/- 1500G, so we probably aren't seeing the detailed transition between umbra and penumbra as described in the 2019 article (1849G-4000G). The high-resolution images that do show the detail, especially when animated, are very interesting, and you can really get a sense of flow and direction. Edited January 24, 2023 by Drax Spacex 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildWill Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) On 1/22/2023 at 3:19 PM, Sam Warfel said: I hope this doesn’t go like exactly one week ago, when 3186 developed a nice strong delta that then faded away without any flaring… It produced one C flare yesterday that I saw... it was pretty cool visually, but not like an M or X... it could also have been a small filament eruption, hard to tell. I caught three events yesterday that were flaring, possibly a filament eruption and what I thought might be an Ellerman bomb. The flaring/filament was on AR13190 & AR13194 while the Ellerman bomb was at the edge of a spot on AR13199. I pulled this from SDO while I was watching. It was a whole lot brighter to the naked eye than it appears here... still very cool - in my opinion anyway! It was very cool to watch... tiny in comparison to a C class flare - and yet released 10,000x the energy released by the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima! Scale... That little Ellerman bomb released enough energy to make the surface of earth uninhabitable by humans for hundreds of thousands of years... It only lasted about 7 minutes, but during those 7 minutes it sho did shine! All y'all have ya a nice day. W&A Edited January 24, 2023 by WildWill Autocorrect the autocorrected version 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildWill Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 On 1/23/2023 at 6:44 AM, HalfFeralHuman said: I just noticed something rather odd about 3190 showing up on the HMI dopplergram. The region seems to be slowly oscillating between moving rapidly towards and rapidly away with a period of ~24 hours, with a marked active spot in the centre. I haven't seen this before and I've no idea what the significance is. I just found it curious, especially given how interesting this region's been in general. PS: The dopplergram isn't on this site, guess there's usually nothing interesting to see from it, but it can be found on nasa.gov at https://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/data/aiahmi/. Still kickin it! Nice Catch! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamateur 1953 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 I Could say kick it out! but started a rockandroll heyday last time that sam definitely does NOT need 🤣🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Warfel Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, hamateur 1953 said: I Could say kick it out! but started a rockandroll heyday last time that sam definitely does NOT need 🤣🤣 Please remain on topic and informative. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamateur 1953 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 gotcha. I misposted anyhow. sri 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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