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Region 3190


MinYoongi

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7 hours ago, Drax Spacex said:

You're right - the direct view through the eyepiece is more detailed and more stable than what I can capture using my cell phone camera.  I'm definitely putting the A's in Amateur Astrophotography!  The filter I'm using is a $20 silver-black 8" X 8" polymer film from Thousand Oaks.  It naturally imbues the orange color.  It's an economic way to have a minimal capability to view sunspots.   Ah but where it could lead with a sophisticated configuration as you describe - very impressive!

 

4 hours ago, Sam Warfel said:

My entire forecast doesn’t have a single time that’s even just partly cloudy… nope, full clouds as far as we can see. 
Very annoying, I want to make my first forays into stacked astrophotography, but I need clear skies to be able to do anything 


So, young Padawans, you would look to the dark side, where the weak are blinded by just a glimpse! Beware, the power of the dark side of the sun. I see you’ve created your first light sabres. Crude, but effective enough. You’ll learn to create more sophisticated light sabres which will in tern allow you to view almost incomprehensible power. 
 

The other reason you don’t need or want anything bigger than 5 or 6” is that you just don’t need it. The whole reason for getting a larger aperture is so you can gather more light. With the sun, you really don’t have that issue. Besides, your money is much better spent on better optics. A nice APO triplet w/ good glass and sealed, purged spaces don’t come cheap. Mine was $3k. ES APO ES 127.. 

Be a little selective about sending/posting your pictures. While you and I might think they are the most awesome thing since sliced bread, not everyone does. 

All the action is in H-alpha. But it’s expensive just to open that door… in the meantime, some of your nighttime nebula filters H-a, H-b, OIII, S II, etc, wont let you look into the chromosphere and transition zone, but they can improve the contrast, not only with sunspots, but plages and some faculae as well. 
 

I was out in it 5 hours today. Mostly looking at AR13190. The seeing was just so good that I was able to see just incredible detail. It seemed to be weakening for most of the day and then appeared to start to strengthen late in the day.  Could just be a false perception on my part. I was able to crank up the mag to 170x or thereabouts- with my lil ole 71mm WO GT. The best views were at about 140x. 
 

Baader makes a Ca K-line filter for around $350, it’s not for visual use, strictly photography. H-a will cost ya over $1000 to get in. I got the Daystar Quark for $1250… btw, they (Daystar.com):has some good material about different features found in the chromosphere.

It was well worth it. The sun! It’s the only thing in the sky that changes, dramatically, on a regular basis and sometimes as you watch - and you don’t even have to stay up all night!! You do need sunscreen though, particularly at latitudes at or below S. Texas. 
 

I don’t know what your set up looks like, but the other thing is a good mount. I’ve had a telescope most of the time since I was 11 ( Comet Kahotek), my dad bought it for me so I could figure it out and he could just look and not work it… never had a computerized mount before a year ago. So sweet. I’ve got the iOptron AZ Mount Pro - with the tripod ~$1400. All long as you level it and balance it, it’ll be dead on all night and the next day. Mine, I just turn on, takes about a minute or so to do it’s self calibration, then I only have to hit two buttons and it’s aimed at sol, ready for me to start looking. It’ll then track it all day long, perfectly. If ive cranked the magnification and I’m looking at a prominence on the side of the sun, I can walk away for hours and come back and it’ll still be tracking dead on with that prominence right in the middle where I left it. It’s a pretty amazing mount for the money. If you’re gonna get serious though, your gonna need a equatorial mount. 
 

Witness the power of the dark side of the sun! 
 

May the farce be with you..

Master Will 

I could ramble on, but my Dog is looking at me like he’s really hungry and in need of attention… 
 

 

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2 hours ago, WildWill said:

Show up on what? On what intensity gram do you refer? Do you mean the HMI Magnetogram (B &W). If that’s the case, then I believe you are mistaken. The image we see from that instrument isn’t actually grayscale, but black and white. Each pixel is either on or off. There is still polarized plasma in the “hole” as you call it. So, no you wouldn’t see a “hole” there. It would not change that image at all. In looking at this - I really don’t see anything that couple overload the sensor. Do you?

It would be this right in the center of the sunspot that keeps coming and going,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jT0ZBojUnyuv_B_TbckBdrkD81PM4kju/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pPcQyCMwS5jQsjt3CYOdT9C4XZLxU1aQ/view

Maybe there is another word for it, but overloading the sensor is the best I've got. It has occurred with other strong spots in sunspot regions in the archive, so we know what it is (sort of). I guess it would just be finding the correct term for what is happening.

............

Well, I asked, so maybe we will find out tomorrow.

Edited by Jesterface23
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42 minutes ago, Jesterface23 said:

It would be this right in the center of the sunspot that keeps coming and going,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jT0ZBojUnyuv_B_TbckBdrkD81PM4kju/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pPcQyCMwS5jQsjt3CYOdT9C4XZLxU1aQ/view

Maybe there is another word for it, but overloading the sensor is the best I've got. It has occurred with other strong spots in sunspot regions in the archive, so we know what it is (sort of). I guess it would just be finding the correct term for what is happening.

Howdy,

The term I think you are looking for is saturation. And I certainly don’t see the case for that here. If you are looking at that tiny white dot right at the centroid of the black region, or so it appears to me. That is probably a little piece of plasma, in the chromosphere that caught a bit of a glow for a second. Or one of hundred other things. It could also be an eclipse - but I didn’t see twisted, tearing sheets of plasma or really overly large bundles of field lines coming out. It actually appears to have weakened between midnight last night and noon today as you can see on the magnetograms at sdo (b&w). CBBA81C6-1FB1-40B4-BF4D-60075F3F46A6.thumb.jpeg.25cab723b06df97282303844992bb58d.jpeg

If your talking about the spot shrinking in the video in the first link, it looks like the spot is weakening a bit and you can see warmer plasmas working their way into the spot, and cooler plasmas moving out from the spot, enhancing its penumbra at the expense of umbra. In this case it seems to flow back and forth a bit and appeared to weaken. As it did though, you can see it’s penumbra grow and overrun the oppositely charged plasma (penumbra) as it does. Pretty cool. But I don’t see anything in there that doesn’t look like normal behavior. 
 

The second link reveals a flashing (quite annoying btw) between a b&w Magnetogram and the Enhanced Intensitygram (white light). The Magnetogram (b&w) has a very small pore of opposite polarity right in the middle of a large “spot”. Nothing strange there, take a look, ya see it all the time. Keep in mind though, with this and the colorized version, keep in mind, as I believe I mentioned earlier, that you are looking at a projection of a 3D region - the photosphere, chromosphere and transition zone. There I plasma floating above the surface and sunspots below. So that white dot doesn’t necessarily have to be inside of that spot. It could be above it.

As for it not appearing on the “Enhanced Intensitygram”, there is no reason for it to. This image is a “white light” image which has been computer enhanced. It does not show either polarities - and everything going on in the chromosphere is washed out by the photosphere - so you only see the surface - the photosphere, where the spots are. 
 

Hope this helps!

WnA

My dog wants attention… gotta go

Oh, I’ll say it again - Tele Vue - all ya need are a few plossels and a Powermate… Just so you can cover the useful range of magnifications for your particular light sabre… 

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38 minutes ago, WildWill said:

The second link reveals a flashing (quite annoying btw) between a b&w Magnetogram and the Enhanced Intensitygram (white light). The Magnetogram (b&w) has a very small pore of opposite polarity right in the middle of a large “spot”. Nothing strange there, take a look, ya see it all the time. Keep in mind though, with this and the colorized version, keep in mind, as I believe I mentioned earlier, that you are looking at a projection of a 3D region - the photosphere, chromosphere and transition zone. There I plasma floating above the surface and sunspots below. So that white dot doesn’t necessarily have to be inside of that spot. It could be above it.

The first GIF was 2.5x faster, so you choose lol. That small dot of opposite polarity is the point. At least in the normal black and white magnetogram imagery you need the full 4096x4096 to see it. It has been going on for days. I don't remember seeing anything like this live before and I've been watching since 2015.

Maybe you are right, it could be something above the center of the umbra. Hopefully I get an email back that fully solves this.

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4 hours ago, WildWill said:

Show up on what? On what intensity gram do you refer? Do you mean the HMI Magnetogram (B &W). If that’s the case, then I believe you are mistaken.

No, I didn’t mean the black and white magnetogram. I specifically said that it would show up on the intensitygram if it was due to the spot warming up. (Any of the 3 intensitygrams).

The “hole” was visible on the colorized magnetogram prior to my post yesterday, so you won’t see it now.

I was in a rush yesterday so maybe this will clear up what I meant. The colorized magnetogram would indeed lighten up if the sunspot warmed up; but it would also lighten up on the intensitygram images, which it didn’t do. It stayed dark like the rest of the umbra indicating that it remained cool. The coldest area of a sunspot has the highest magnetic field strength. Normally the intensitygram and magnetogram directly correlate to each other but they didn’t. That’s why I thought it could be a sensor type issue. But as I stated previously, I don’t know the actual reason, it’s just an interesting anomaly.

1 hour ago, Jesterface23 said:

Hopefully I get an email back that fully solves this.

Yes, hopefully the mystery will be solved!

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Khoutek sucked btw.  ya didn’t miss anything.  My old three inch refractor was as disappointed as the rest of the world at “ The Comet of the Century” as typical hype sold newpapers and telescopes!!  🤣🤣🤣

5 hours ago, WildWill said:

 


So, young Padawans, you would look to the dark side, where the weak are blinded by just a glimpse! Beware, the power of the dark side of the sun. I see you’ve created your first light sabres. Crude, but effective enough. You’ll learn to create more sophisticated light sabres which will in tern allow you to view almost incomprehensible power. 
 

The other reason you don’t need or want anything bigger than 5 or 6” is that you just don’t need it. The whole reason for getting a larger aperture is so you can gather more light. With the sun, you really don’t have that issue. Besides, your money is much better spent on better optics. A nice APO triplet w/ good glass and sealed, purged spaces don’t come cheap. Mine was $3k. ES APO ES 127.. 

Be a little selective about sending/posting your pictures. While you and I might think they are the most awesome thing since sliced bread, not everyone does. 

All the action is in H-alpha. But it’s expensive just to open that door… in the meantime, some of your nighttime nebula filters H-a, H-b, OIII, S II, etc, wont let you look into the chromosphere and transition zone, but they can improve the contrast, not only with sunspots, but plages and some faculae as well. 
 

I was out in it 5 hours today. Mostly looking at AR13190. The seeing was just so good that I was able to see just incredible detail. It seemed to be weakening for most of the day and then appeared to start to strengthen late in the day.  Could just be a false perception on my part. I was able to crank up the mag to 170x or thereabouts- with my lil ole 71mm WO GT. The best views were at about 140x. 
 

Baader makes a Ca K-line filter for around $350, it’s not for visual use, strictly photography. H-a will cost ya over $1000 to get in. I got the Daystar Quark for $1250… btw, they (Daystar.com):has some good material about different features found in the chromosphere.

It was well worth it. The sun! It’s the only thing in the sky that changes, dramatically, on a regular basis and sometimes as you watch - and you don’t even have to stay up all night!! You do need sunscreen though, particularly at latitudes at or below S. Texas. 
 

I don’t know what your set up looks like, but the other thing is a good mount. I’ve had a telescope most of the time since I was 11 ( Comet Kahotek), my dad bought it for me so I could figure it out and he could just look and not work it… never had a computerized mount before a year ago. So sweet. I’ve got the iOptron AZ Mount Pro - with the tripod ~$1400. All long as you level it and balance it, it’ll be dead on all night and the next day. Mine, I just turn on, takes about a minute or so to do it’s self calibration, then I only have to hit two buttons and it’s aimed at sol, ready for me to start looking. It’ll then track it all day long, perfectly. If ive cranked the magnification and I’m looking at a prominence on the side of the sun, I can walk away for hours and come back and it’ll still be tracking dead on with that prominence right in the middle where I left it. It’s a pretty amazing mount for the money. If you’re gonna get serious though, your gonna need a equatorial mount. 
 

Witness the power of the dark side of the sun! 
 

May the farce be with you..

Master Will 

I could ramble on, but my Dog is looking at me like he’s really hungry and in need of attention… 
 

 

 

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Okay, here is the answer to those mysterious magnetogram spots in the center of umbra.

The imagery we look at on the SDO website isn't scientific data. The near-realtime imagery uses a simplified algorithm delivering incorrect values for some strong fields.

......

(never mind on my CME comment edited out, there was just a limb CME that made this one look better than it was (not saying the 3190 CME isn't Earth-directed though (waiting on more imagery)))

Edited by Jesterface23
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12 hours ago, Calder said:

No, I didn’t mean the black and white magnetogram. I specifically said that it would show up on the intensitygram if it was due to the spot warming up. (Any of the 3 intensitygrams).

The “hole” was visible on the colorized magnetogram prior to my post yesterday, so you won’t see it now.

I was in a rush yesterday so maybe this will clear up what I meant. The colorized magnetogram would indeed lighten up if the sunspot warmed up; but it would also lighten up on the intensitygram images, which it didn’t do. It stayed dark like the rest of the umbra indicating that it remained cool. The coldest area of a sunspot has the highest magnetic field strength. Normally the intensitygram and magnetogram directly correlate to each other but they didn’t. That’s why I thought it could be a sensor type issue. But as I stated previously, I don’t know the actual reason, it’s just an interesting anomaly.

Yes, hopefully the mystery will be solved!

Why don't you pull the intensitygrams from the archives and slow way down and show us what you are talking about. 
Regarding this post...

"The intensitygams, all 3 should match"

FALSE.

Why spend all the money on instruments if they all show the same things? I won't get into the details about what each one is and shows, that's available in the help...

"The 3 intensitygrams..."

FALSE.  There are at least 8 different HMI images, just on SDO. Check out sdo.gsfc.NASA.gov  They also maintain an archive. You can pull the images you are referring to from either here or SDO - or SWPC

How you got from here to "sensor overload" or more correctly Super-saturation, is beyond me.  It they could so easily be saturated, we would see that all the time. If ya look at the Magnetograms I posted, you can see field lines and 13190 is not even the strongest magnetic area on the sun. 
Yesterday morning, in H-a, there was a little hole in 13190, it filled back by afternoon. It was nothing more than some weakening and restrengthening - or so it appeared to me. The Magnetograms I posted were from midnight the night before last and around noon yesterday. The time stamps should be accurate.

One of the things I've been focusing on in my studies is to look at how different events on the sun "appear" on all the different images, along with radio...  basically, the whole EM spectrum. I've tried to look at deltas in particular, across all these instruments. Also, flares, filament eruptions, etc. so that I can better understand what is happening and provide a better method fir identifying specific events. If I know what a particular event type looks like across all the instruments, then I might possibly build a "smart" (Simulated Intelligence) system for accurately identifying structures and events. 
Actually building such a MSI system is beyond the scope of my efforts and studies. 

My focus here is not driven by events which excite the Aurora. I've been working on modeling the sun and various layers. By modeling, I'm talking about identifying and modeling all the forces on an infinitesimal "cube" of plasma, at any latitude and depth on the sun. To that I add relationships of state variables (Pressure, Temperature, density, etc). And third, relate these with electromagnetic fields and flux throughout the sun. 
Basically, as complete a mathematical model as I can build. I've looked at velocity profiles and modeled flux from the core through the thermocline, right up to the convection zone. I have some thoughts about energy transfer through the convective zone and on to the photosphere - but haven't tried to put numbers to that piece of the puzzle. But think lava lamp as mechanism for transfer of energy through the convective zone.

At the moment, I have an hypothesis as to why sand how the Corona shines so brightly and at such high temperatures and velocities. Here, just think: "Nature abhors a vacuum". So, the plasma in the corona is not only being pushed out, but pulled as well. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, hamateur 1953 said:

Khoutek sucked btw.  ya didn’t miss anything.  My old three inch refractor was as disappointed as the rest of the world at “ The Comet of the Century” as typical hype sold newpapers and telescopes!!  🤣🤣🤣

 

I know Kahotek was a dud - I was there, 12 years old and in Puerto Rico. It was supposed to be better than Halley's Comet in 1910 - which was quite a show... but it just fizzled. But I did get my first telescope cause it was coming.

😊

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18 minutes ago, WildWill said:

Why don't you pull the intensitygrams from the archives and slow way down and show us what you are talking about. 
Regarding this post...

"The intensitygams, all 3 should match"

FALSE.

Why spend all the money on instruments if they all show the same things? I won't get into the details about what each one is and shows, that's available in the help...

"The 3 intensitygrams..."

FALSE.  There are at least 8 different HMI images, just on SDO. Check out sdo.gsfc.NASA.gov  They also maintain an archive. You can pull the images you are referring to from either here or SDO - or SWPC

How you got from here to "sensor overload" or more correctly Super-saturation, is beyond me.  It they could so easily be saturated, we would see that all the time. If ya look at the Magnetograms I posted, you can see field lines and 13190 is not even the strongest magnetic area on the sun. 
Yesterday morning, in H-a, there was a little hole in 13190, it filled back by afternoon. It was nothing more than some weakening and restrengthening - or so it appeared to me. The Magnetograms I posted were from midnight the night before last and around noon yesterday. The time stamps should be accurate.

One of the things I've been focusing on in my studies is to look at how different events on the sun "appear" on all the different images, along with radio...  basically, the whole EM spectrum. I've tried to look at deltas in particular, across all these instruments. Also, flares, filament eruptions, etc. so that I can better understand what is happening and provide a better method fir identifying specific events. If I know what a particular event type looks like across all the instruments, then I might possibly build a "smart" (Simulated Intelligence) system for accurately identifying structures and events. 
Actually building such a MSI system is beyond the scope of my efforts and studies. 

My focus here is not driven by events which excite the Aurora. I've been working on modeling the sun and various layers. By modeling, I'm talking about identifying and modeling all the forces on an infinitesimal "cube" of plasma, at any latitude and depth on the sun. To that I add relationships of state variables (Pressure, Temperature, density, etc). And third, relate these with electromagnetic fields and flux throughout the sun. 
Basically, as complete a mathematical model as I can build. I've looked at velocity profiles and modeled flux from the core through the thermocline, right up to the convection zone. I have some thoughts about energy transfer through the convective zone and on to the photosphere - but haven't tried to put numbers to that piece of the puzzle. But think lava lamp as mechanism for transfer of energy through the convective zone.

At the moment, I have an hypothesis as to why sand how the Corona shines so brightly and at such high temperatures and velocities. Here, just think: "Nature abhors a vacuum". So, the plasma in the corona is not only being pushed out, but pulled as well.    Absolutely fascinating WW!!   and plausible to boot   

mike

 

 

 

 

 

I know Kahotek was a dud - I was there, 12 years old and in Puerto Rico. It was supposed to be better than Halley's Comet in 1910 - which was quite a show... but it just fizzled. But I did get my first telescope cause it was coming.

😊

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1 hour ago, Jesterface23 said:

Okay, here is the answer to those mysterious magnetogram spots in the center of umbra.

The imagery we look at on the SDO website isn't scientific data. The near-realtime imagery uses a simplified algorithm delivering incorrect values for some strong fields.

......

(never mind on my CME comment edited out, there was just a limb CME that made this one look better than it was (not saying the 3190 CME isn't Earth-directed though (waiting on more imagery)))

Howdy,

Can you source your information for us?

Thanks!

WnA

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18 hours ago, WildWill said:

Why don't you pull the intensitygrams from the archives and slow way down and show us what you are talking about. 
Regarding this post...

"The intensitygams, all 3 should match"

FALSE.

Why spend all the money on instruments if they all show the same things? I won't get into the details about what each one is and shows, that's available in the help...

"The 3 intensitygrams..."

FALSE.  There are at least 8 different HMI images, just on SDO. Check out sdo.gsfc.NASA.gov  They also maintain an archive. You can pull the images you are referring to from either here or SDO - or SWPC.

I know this is getting off topic, but I feel like this should be addressed. The 3 intensitygrams that I’m referring to as listed on SpaceWeatherLive and SDO are HMIIF, HMII, HMIIC. They stand for the following:

HMIIF (Helioseismic and Magnetic Imager Intensitygram Flat)

HMII (Helioseismic and Magnetic Imager Intensitygram)

HMIIC (Helioseismic and Magnetic Imager Intensitygram Colored) 

All HMI stands for is (Helioseismic and Magnetic Imager). I think that is where your confusion is.

Now I’ll break down why I’m saying all 3 intensitygrams correlate to the colorized magnetogram:

All 3 intensitygrams show sunspots which are areas of relatively cooler temperatures in the photosphere. This is why they appear darker then the surrounding area. This cooling effect happens due to strong magnetic fields present in the area. These magnetic fields keep some of the heat within the Sun from reaching the surface.

Now, looking at a typical sunspot you will see two distinct areas. Umbrae and Penumbrae. Umbrae are the darkest and coldest part of sunspots due to having the strongest magnetic fields. Penumbrae surround or partially surround the Umbrae and appear lighter then the Umbrae but still darker then the rest of the photosphere. Penumbrae are warmer then Umbrae because the magnetic fields are weaker. With all this said, you can see there is a direct correlation between magnetic strength and darkness of sunspots. The colorized magnetogram visually shows the two polarities and their magnetic strength. On the colorized magnetogram, the darkest part/strongest field is where the Umbra is.

So in conclusion, if the colorized magnetogram were to show the fields in the Umbra getting lighter/weaker, you should see the sunspot’s Umbra on the intensitygram also getting lighter.

This is why I said the “hole” on the magnetogram wasn’t due to it warming up. It would’ve appeared on the intensitygram too.

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3 hours ago, WildWill said:

I’m glad you took my advice and sent an email to the project team at Goddard with “sensor overload” in the subject. I told you that you would get a response and the response would be “No, not sensor overload”. lol.

Cheers

Will

Before you act like “chicken little” and scream the sky is falling, you should do enough research to back it up. Sensor “overload” implies a lot more than saturation. When I’ve used the term or seen it used, it implies damage to the instrument. Saturation implies a lesser degree, without damage to the instrument. 
 

The whole idea of sensor overload and how you got to it is ridiculous. Your story also keeps changing, backpedaling I call it. 
 

Will you just admit that your logic and conclusion “sensor overloaded by massive magnetic field” were both flawed? I’m glad you are doing a little research now. 
 

You seem to have glossed over the fact that more than 3 HMI images are generated. That was an assertion you made previously. 
 

Im not gonna go through the resent of them. Ya know, ignorance can be cured, if the subject is willing, as far as I know, there is no cure for stupidity. Which are you? 
 

I a, so done with this conversation it’s not funny. Think what ever you want. After all, y’all are geniuses who know it all. I don’t even think I  in the same class with you (actually, I hope I’m not, ever). Continue onward in blissful ignorance. I really don’t care.

Cheers.

Will Kealey ‘91

Aero/TAMU

 

 

Size doesn’t not matter, it is magnetic complexity. Visible on the surface and chromosphere or hidden in the photosphere….

The latest photospheric map from WSO generated from observations on 17th January gives us the opportunity to compare magnetic fields associated with three very different sunspots

prelim.pho_17Jan_2023.jpg.e21eddc962db6c2afd16f78506475386.jpg

AR3190 is located at C129, 15S AR3191 at C132, 12N, and AR3192 at C117, 16N

The magnetic fields in all these regions is very similar, yet the size and activity level of the sunspots is very different.

It is easy to get carried away when we see a huge spot like AR3190, and expect exceptional activity. Data suggests it is much more complex than that.

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It would appear that AR13190 has gained some magnetic complexity overnight. Compare with yesterday in previous post above 


CD099764-204A-4259-AEAA-5F7490E507EC.jpeg.2178cff76c149ee256e66fa0eda8b655.jpeg
 

Now let's see what it does with it!

I will be checking it out through my telescope in a little while. Hopefully, nice show today! Cheers

WnA

Edited by WildWill
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Such a lack of optimism...  what a shame!

As long as we have background flux up on the C range, there's stuff going on! 

im heading out back in about 5 minutes...  take me 10 minutes to get set up...  so all y'all expect the real action to begin in about 15 minutes.

Thats my prediction and I'm sticking with it...

All y'all have a nice day! If'n a don't think anything is gonna happen, ditch the phone and go do something else..

😉

WnA

 

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