Geomagnetic Activity from US Nuclear Test in Nevada on 10/18/23

[Bry]

I was curious if the US Nuclear test conducted this Wednesday at the Nevada Test site left a detectable signature in space weather sensors or is contributing to current geomagnetic activity at the moment?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-19/us-nuclear-test-on-day-of-kremlin-s-treaty-abdication-fuels-doubt#xj4y7vzkg

https://www.foxnews.com/us/us-conducts-nuclear-test-nevada-hours-russian-move-revoke-global-nuclear-test-ban

"The U.S. conducted a high-explosive experiment at a nuclear test site in Nevada hours after Russia revoked a ban on atomic-weapons testing, which Moscow said would put it on par with the United States."

This was Solar Wind speed and density and IMF for Wednesday:

 

 

[tniickck]

does 1 nuclear test affect the whole planet? i dont think so, maybe only in local territories as generated charged particles ionize the atmosphere(but I may be wrong so I will be very glad if somebody proves if i am)

[3gMike]

1 hour ago, Bry said:

I was curious if the US Nuclear test conducted this Wednesday at the Nevada Test site left a detectable signature in space weather sensors or is contributing to current geomagnetic activity at the moment?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-19/us-nuclear-test-on-day-of-kremlin-s-treaty-abdication-fuels-doubt#xj4y7vzkg

https://www.foxnews.com/us/us-conducts-nuclear-test-nevada-hours-russian-move-revoke-global-nuclear-test-ban

"The U.S. conducted a high-explosive experiment at a nuclear test site in Nevada hours after Russia revoked a ban on atomic-weapons testing, which Moscow said would put it on par with the United States."

This was Solar Wind speed and density and IMF for Wednesday:

 

 

 

I think it is extremely unlikely. Obviously we do not have detailed information, but it may not even have been a true nuclear explosion. The Fox News document suggests that they used chemicals and radio-isotopes in an experiment related to detection of underground nuclear explosions.

It seems that some scientists believe that an air-burst nuclear explosion leading to an EMP event can influence geomagnetic activity. https://spaceweatherarchive.com/2021/07/29/nuclear-bombs-can-cause-geomagnetic-storms/#:~:text=First%2C the EMP ionizes a,of heaving%2C lurching geomagnetic storm.

[Drax Spacex]

A terrestrial sensor may register both magnetic and seismic phenomena and may not distinguish between the two.

"...it is well known that the ferro-magnetic material used in seismometers is sensitive to magnetic fluctuations"

https://www.usgs.gov/programs/earthquake-hazards/science/auroras-and-earthquakes-strange-companions#overview

A space-based magnetic sensor should be decoupled from terrestrial seismic events, both natural and man-made.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Drax Spacex
terrestrial vs space-based sensors

[M42Sparks]

One still has to wonder in an ever increasing world drive to zero carbon emisions, go green inentives, mandatory taxing of wasted energy actions some where, someone says yes, but that can't include military blowing stuff up and testing bombs and and and. Egads Humanity is so outta wack. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by M42Sparks
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[Bry]

I can't help but wonder as well...

Considering we just had our largest X-Flare (X2.81) and radioblackout on 12/14/23 since the X9.3 on 9/6/2017...

and that was 3 days after the last "publicly announced" official underground nuclear test in North Korea on 9/3/2017 ...

Considering it takes ~3 days for a solar eruption to reach Earth, wouldn't it make sense that a nuclear test conducted on earth might take 3 days to reach the sun as well?

 

Considering that seismometers, magnetometers, electron/proton flux, and geiger counters cannot distinguish between terrestrial and geomagnetic events

...is it reasonable to think that large Solar Flares might be the best indicators of a recent nuclear tests...?

 

I agree with above sentiments, it does seem strange for the US to worry about the effects of global warming due to use of fossil fuels while using puppet states to fight proxy wars for oil... and not consider the climate effects of blowing up GDP as bombs.

[tniickck]

18 minutes ago, Bry said:

... is it reasonable to think that large Solar Flares might be the best indicators of a recent nuclear tests...?

how did you even connect it 💀🙏

[Bry]

48 minutes ago, tniickck said:

how did you even connect it 💀🙏

Because essentially:

The sun just had its largest earth-facing solar flare event since the one (X9.3) that occurred 3 days after the “last nuclear test was conducted September 2017..

This is all assuming:

- it takes around 2-3 days for earth directed solar eruptions to hit earth, so I figured it would take a similar amount of time 2-3 days for a shockwave from a nuclear explosion to get to the sun as well.

-Atmospheric effects of Nuclear Activity on earth is impactful to solar activity due to Earth being the second strongest gravitational force orbiting sun by density and distance after Jupiter.

-geomagnetic vs terrestrial vs anthropogenic effects are indistinguishable on current sensors

I know this sounds farfetched and certainly morbid, but considering the above said assumptions & current climate of tensions around the globe (and esp. in the Red Sea)... I couldn’t help but wonder if anyone else thought the same?

 

[tniickck]

nuclear expolosions shockwaves are are incomparably small compared to the Sun and the energy it emits

[Vancanneyt Sander]

11 minuten geleden, tniickck zei:

nuclear expolosions shockwaves are are incomparably small compared to the Sun and the energy it emits

To put it in perspective: the most powerful solar flares have the energy equivalent of a billion hydrogen bombs, enough energy to power the whole world for 20,000 years.

so what happens here on Earth hasn’t got the tiniest effect outside the Earth. 

[hamateur 1953]

Aside from the April 1st Trump joke here to accelerate some aurora by injecting nuclear materials into the sun,  I’d most certainly agree!!  Haha. 

[helios]

We can generate aurora by using high altitude nuclear explosions though 😁
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime
But that has of course no influence on the sun.

[Philalethes]

1 hour ago, Vancanneyt Sander said:

To put it in perspective: the most powerful solar flares have the energy equivalent of a billion hydrogen bombs, enough energy to power the whole world for 20,000 years.

so what happens here on Earth hasn’t got the tiniest effect outside the Earth. 

And to add to that, the Solar luminosity regardless of flaring is ~3.8 x 10^26 W, i.e. roughly 400 YW (yottawatts, one of the few contexts where we get to use that SI prefix in a meaningful way, heh), while the primary energy consumption of all humanity corresponds to a continuous power of ~20 TW; in other words, the luminosity is roughly 20 trillion times that. The Solar radiant exitance (power per area emitted from the Solar surface itself) is correspondingly 63 MW per square meter, which means that somehow fully utilizing the power emitted from an area of the Solar surface corresponding to roughly 0.1% (1/1000) of the area of Rhode Island (the smallest US state) would be enough to power the entire world's energy needs for now (that area would as per what was mentioned above be equal to a twenty trillionth of the total surface area, 0.0000000005% of it).

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that anything happening here on Earth for the time being isn't going to affect our local star anytime soon.

[Chris_Wicklund]

On 10/20/2023 at 2:22 PM, Bry said:

I was curious if the US Nuclear test conducted this Wednesday at the Nevada Test site left a detectable signature in space weather sensors or is contributing to current geomagnetic activity at the moment?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-19/us-nuclear-test-on-day-of-kremlin-s-treaty-abdication-fuels-doubt#xj4y7vzkg

https://www.foxnews.com/us/us-conducts-nuclear-test-nevada-hours-russian-move-revoke-global-nuclear-test-ban

"The U.S. conducted a high-explosive experiment at a nuclear test site in Nevada hours after Russia revoked a ban on atomic-weapons testing, which Moscow said would put it on par with the United States."

This was Solar Wind speed and density and IMF for Wednesday:

 

 

 

This thread is incredibly hilarious because you’re showing a graph at L1 which is ~ 1.5 million kilometers from earth and has nothing to do with any of the statements in this thread.

[Bry]

Thanks y'all for considering, responding and entertaining my hypothetical question however concerning or outrageous it seems or sounds...

Thanks for the reminder that this wasn't my idea anyways but a great April fools joke made by this website that never got seriously answered! haha😅

It does seem like terrestrial nuclear testing might not effect our Sun, but what about atmospheric nuclear tests effecting earths radiation belts long term?

I was also wondering about how larger effects of combined nuclear activity might impact solar cycle activity (if at all) considering one of our most active solar cycles (based off highest Sunspot Number or solar flare/filament/cme events) was also during when the most nuclear testing was conducted. (solar cycle 18, *especially 19 - 22).

 

13 minutes ago, helios said:

We can generate aurora by using high altitude nuclear explosions though 😁
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime
But that has of course no influence on the sun.

Starfish Prime is a great example, thanks for bringing it up! I thought 1967 Outer Space Treaties were enacted right after this last atmospheric nuclear test to ban further testing in space because scientists realized the electron radiation belt around earth was affected for at least 5 years after an atmospheric nuclear test was conducted.. Wouldn't enhanced electrons in Earths radiation belt effect solar activity considering Earth is second strongest gravitational force on the Sun after Jupiter and earth shares an interplanetary magnetic field (IMF) with the Sun?

If our last offical nuclear test on earth was in 2017.. wouldn't it take another 5 years of waiting, until 2022, for the electron from our radiation belt to rain the extra electrons back down to earth for it to be safe to test another nuclear bomb again?

Thank you all so much again for seriously entertaining this topic despite its limited tolerance/appeal🤪

 

[Philalethes]

11 minutes ago, Bry said:

what about atmospheric nuclear tests effecting earths radiation belts long term?

That's a better question; in a similar thread from a year or two ago we discussed something similar, and that there might be some scant evidence for VLF generation from nuclear blasts up in the thermosphere and/or dedicated transmitters used for submarine communication to have some effect there, but it's far from anything conclusive at this point. The proposed mechanism is that those low frequencies resonate with high-energy electrons in the radiation belts and cause them to precipitate at much higher than natural rates, which among other things can cause satellites to fail.

While I agree with posts above that it wouldn't make sense to check the measurements at L1, and certainly not that it could affect Solar activity, one could perhaps imagine that it might be possible to cause some geomagnetic activity this way, although it'd be highly speculative. I would also note that the specific test you're talking about from October was not an actual nuclear test at all from what I read, but only a chemical explosion using radiotracers in order to test detection capabilities in the eventuality of an actual nuclear explosion; it was also underground. Thus while a high-atmosphere nuclear blast might induce electron precipitation that might induce some geomagnetic activity (again, very speculative, this could be so minor that it would not be possible to detect for all I know), this test certainly did not do any of that.

Here is an article discussing some of it, and here is a site by a guy I came across quite a while ago who takes it all a bit further, but does discuss a lot of interesting information pertaining to it. Probably best to dredge up whatever scientifically sound evidence you can and take it to the "Unproven theories" thread for further discussion.

[Vancanneyt Sander]

24 minuten geleden, Bry zei:

but what about atmospheric nuclear tests effecting earths radiation belts long term?

Again: no. Why? Because to Earth has been struck by meteors in the past and except for ruining dinosaurs (100 million megaton) the atmosphere and magnetosphere did hold!
For another more recent reference: the Tunguska meteor that exploded a few kilometers above the ground had a power of 10-40 megatons. The shockwave went 5 times around the Earth. 

[Philalethes]

29 minutes ago, Vancanneyt Sander said:

Again: no.

I think it depends on what is meant by long-term in that context; if you see e.g. the first article I linked to above, there's definitely evidence that such high-altitude nuclear explosions can cause increases in precipitation from the radiation belt. Whether or not this would ever be sufficient for any long-term effects on the belts is much more speculative (and dependent on what "long-term" means), and I personally doubt it. Potential geomagnetic activity from that in turn is equally speculative, if not even more so.

Thus I think it'd be better to take that discussion to the "Unproven theories" thread and provide whatever evidence there might be for it there; or perhaps even to discuss it somewhere else on the web, since it's really only marginally related to the topics this site focuses on. I wouldn't mind discussing it in that thread personally though.

[hamateur 1953]

On 12/16/2023 at 12:25 PM, helios said:

We can generate aurora by using high altitude nuclear explosions though 😁
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime
But that has of course no influence on the sun.

Correct but that starfish sure caused some issues in Hawaii with their local unprotected grid at the time.  Ooops.  We learned a lot from that episode fortunately. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by hamateur 1953
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