Erroneous classification of AR 13089

[Newbie]

AR 13089 is not a single alpha spot. Why is it being shown as AXX?

Last report from SWPC it was beta - delta EKI.

Newbie

Thanks for making the correction

N.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Newbie
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[Philalethes]

Seems like it has been classified beta-gamma now, whereas from what I can see it's currently a beta-delta (which it was classified as when I woke up and checked this morning, if I recall correctly).

[Newbie]

1 minute ago, Philalethes Bythos said:

Seems like it has been classified beta-gamma now, whereas from what I can see it's currently a beta-delta (which it was classified as when I woke up and checked this morning, if I recall correctly).

Yes PB I noted the same. 

[MinYoongi]

Maybe a bug. Is the classification on Noaa correct? Where does SWL pull the classification from?

[Newbie]

23 minutes ago, MinYoongi said:

Maybe a bug. Is the classification on Noaa correct? Where does SWL pull the classification from?

I'm not sure how the false classification arose Min, maybe even a typo but it was rectified quickly. I would have thought sunspot classification  came from SWPC. 

N.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Newbie

[MinYoongi]

44 minutes ago, Newbie said:

I'm not sure how the false classification arose Min, maybe even a typo but it was rectified quickly. I would have thought sunspot classification  came from SWPC. 

N.

Region 3089 (S22E13, Ekc/beta-gamma) grew in size and complexity throughout the period, but remained quiet. No Earth-directed CMEs were detected. 

This is from noaa forecast discussion 10min ago. They did mistakes before and i think the delta is still there so????? Do you guys get now why i dont trust noaa with sunspot assignments?

[Newbie]

1 minute ago, MinYoongi said:

Region 3089 (S22E13, Ekc/beta-gamma) grew in size and complexity throughout the period, but remained quiet. No Earth-directed CMEs were detected. 

This is from noaa forecast discussion 10min ago. They did mistakes before and i think the delta is still there so????? Do you guys get now why i dont trust noaa with sunspot assignments?

Absolutely Min I so get it. The information that has come forward from the forum lately about superimposing hmi magnetograms  and hmi intensitygrams to work out the delta spots has been excellent.

N.

[Vancanneyt Sander]

2 uren geleden, MinYoongi zei:

They did mistakes before and i think the delta is still there so????? Do you guys get now why i dont trust noaa with sunspot assignments?

People make mistakes and SWPC sometimes makes them too. It sure isn't the first time. Once you know how to classify regions you'll spot it immediately. I can always alter it in our database the next day (otherwise it gets overwritten during the day).

[WildWill]

Please tell me why this is delta now? Talking about the trailing spot...?? It wasn't considered a delta by anyone a couple of days ago. I can't repost the image for some reason, but on page 3 of AR13089, at 9:13 am Saturday, P Bithos posted this image for Min showing a clear dividing line making it beta, not beta gamma. 
 

it wasn't a delta then but it is now? 
oh, and if you scroll up a bit, you can see images showing that there is a spot there...

why beta there and not here? Inquiring minds wanna know!

WnA

Edited August 29, 2022 by WildWill

[MinYoongi]

2 minutes ago, WildWill said:

Please tell me why this is delta now? Talking about the trailing spot...?? It wasn't considered a delta by anyone a couple of days ago. I can't repost the image for some reason, but on page 3 of AR13089, at 9:13 am Saturday, P Bithos posted this image for Min showing a clear dividing line making it beta, not beta gamma. 
 

it wasn't a delta then but it is now? 
oh, and if you scroll up a bit, you can see images showing that there is a spot there...

why beta there and not here? Inquiring minds wanna know!

WnA

I dont really understand? 

Because the delta formed recently and wasnt there from the beginning

[WildWill]

3 minutes ago, MinYoongi said:

I dont really understand? 

Because the delta formed recently and wasnt there from the beginning

Go take a look at Saturday morning please. Can you see what I mean?

Edited August 29, 2022 by WildWill

[MinYoongi]

Just now, WildWill said:

Go take a look at Saturday morning please

????and? 

It had a delta, that died, now it has a new one in the trailing portion. Its a delta cuz the 2 black spots share a penumbra

[WildWill]

The mixed spot trailing has been there a few days now.

it was there when PB posted an image for Min, showing why it was. beta...  see the line on the image?

14 minutes ago, MinYoongi said:

????and? 

It had a delta, that died, now it has a new one in the trailing portion. Its a delta cuz the 2 black spots share a penumbra

It was not a delta Saturday and it's not a delta now because the spots do not share a single penumbra. Just because they are pushed against each other does not mean it's a delta.

Edited August 29, 2022 by WildWill

[Chris, HB9DFG]

Hello all

I just wonder, is region 13089 responsible for this extreme sudden improvement of the SFI to 252?
That's an amazing value if it's correct!     Isn't it?

 

Regards, Chris

 

[MinYoongi]

Just now, Chris, HB9DFG said:

Hello all

I just wonder, is region 13089 responsible for this extreme sudden improvement of the SFI to 252?
That's an amazing value if it's correct!     Isn't it?

 

Regards, Chris

 

I opened a thread about it. It was 3088 with its flaring only temporary enhancement.

 

25 minutes ago, WildWill said:

The mixed spot trailing has been there a few days now.

it was there when PB posted an image for Min, showing why it was. beta...  see the line on the image?

It was not a delta Saturday and it's not a delta now because the spots do not share a single penumbra. Just because they are pushed against each other does not mean it's a delta.

It had to grow closer and is NOW a delta because they NOW share a penumbra. Thats why we speculated if it can be called a delta yet. Now we know we can

30 minutes ago, WildWill said:

 

It was not a delta Saturday and it's not a delta now because the spots do not share a single penumbra. Just because they are pushed against each other does not mean it's a delta.

But @Vancanneyt Sander and noaa and @Newbie yesterday and also many scientists i follow said it is.. im confused now. You can literally see its a delta i think? :s

[WildWill]

8 minutes ago, MinYoongi said:

I opened a thread about it. It was 3088 with its flaring only temporary enhancement.

 

It had to grow closer and is NOW a delta because they NOW share a penumbra. Thats why we speculated if it can be called a delta yet. Now we know we can

But @Vancanneyt Sander and noaa and @Newbie yesterday and also many scientists i follow said it is.. im confused now. You can literally see its a delta i think? :s

I have to disagree. There have been other delta’s growing and receding, but that trailing spot with polarities pushed together does not share a single penumbra. Didn’t Saturday, does not now. Yes, pushed together, but single penumbra, no.

[MinYoongi]

2 minutes ago, WildWill said:

I have to disagree. There have been other delta’s growing and receding, but that trailing spot with polarities pushed together does not share a single penumbra. Didn’t Saturday, does not now. Yes, pushed together, but single penumbra, no.

Can you show me? Because to me they share it. I just want to understand you because youre basically denying what scientists, noaa, and experienced people here say. Im not experienced enough to deny your claim so i wanna hear u out

[WildWill]

Hi Min,

I can’t post an image on here right now, but if ya look at the trailing pair of spots, blue on top, red on bottom, you will notice the red is surrounded by yellow and there I sent even any green on the trailing edge of it right now. So, it (red) is not contained within the penumbra of the blue spot. 
 

Look at the trailing edge… 

Also, while the red and blue are “pushed together” the red part has its own penumbra around it. The penumbra is the lighter colored “stuff”… let’s all be really scientific 😉

WnA

———————+++—————

Hi Min,

Take a look, the spot isn’t even surrounded.. much less contained in the penumbra of the blue spot. 

see what I mean? This pair has been like this for days now. I didn’t say anything about it when it wasn’t considered delta and I thought it was… but this is pretty clear.

For a delta, two spots of different polarity must share a single penumbra. Obviously this is not the case here… not even surrounded. And it (red) has its own penumbra (orange).  I hope you can see what I mean. I’ll beat Newbie up when it’s not the middle of the night in Australia! lol. Or maybe she’ll make me look the fool, but I doubt it… 😉

LnA

Edited August 29, 2022 by WildWill

[Philalethes]

1 hour ago, WildWill said:

Please tell me why this is delta now? Talking about the trailing spot...?? It wasn't considered a delta by anyone a couple of days ago. I can't repost the image for some reason, but on page 3 of AR13089, at 9:13 am Saturday, P Bithos posted this image for Min showing a clear dividing line making it beta, not beta gamma. 
 

it wasn't a delta then but it is now? 
oh, and if you scroll up a bit, you can see images showing that there is a spot there...

why beta there and not here? Inquiring minds wanna know!

WnA

Well, when I posted that the negative spot was still not very strong and did not even have an umbra; I identified it as a potential delta, i.e. that it could turn into one, and mentioned that for the time being it was an orphan penumbra. There was also a slight separation between the penumbrae at that point.

If you look at a comment I made further down on the same page, from yesterday (https://community.spaceweatherlive.com/topic/2561-ar13089/?do=findComment&comment=25418), I pointed out that an umbra had grown forth, that it was now right next to the positive spot, and that the penumbrae had merged into one as seen on the intensitygram; I thus said that I believed it had become a delta at that point.

So yes, it became a delta on Sunday.

52 minutes ago, WildWill said:

Take a look, the spot isn’t even surrounded.. much less contained in the penumbra of the blue spot. 

see what I mean? This pair has been like this for days now. I didn’t say anything about it when it wasn’t considered delta and I thought it was… but this is pretty clear.

For a delta, two spots of different polarity must share a single penumbra. Obviously this is not the case here… not even surrounded. And it (red) has its own penumbra (orange).  I hope you can see what I mean. I’ll beat Newbie up when it’s not the middle of the night in Australia! lol. Or maybe she’ll make me look the fool, but I doubt it… 😉

I don't believe being surrounded is a criterion for being a delta; in fact, that would rather be a telltale sign of a gamma.

As for two spots sharing a single penumbra, these do just that now, as is clear from the intensitygram. Two spots that become so close that their penumbrae become inseparable is what sharing a single penumbra means, as far as I'm aware.

Unless there are some arcane definitions I'm not aware of, I don't really see how this couldn't be classified as a delta, but I'm all ears.

[WildWill]

11 minutes ago, Philalethes Bythos said:

Well, when I posted that the negative spot was still not very strong and did not even have an umbra; I identified it as a potential delta, i.e. that it could turn into one, and mentioned that for the time being it was an orphan penumbra. There was also a slight separation between the penumbrae at that point.

If you look at a comment I made further down on the same page, from yesterday (https://community.spaceweatherlive.com/topic/2561-ar13089/?do=findComment&comment=25418), I pointed out that an umbra had grown forth, that it was now right next to the positive spot, and that the penumbrae had merged into one as seen on the intensitygram; I thus said that I believed it had become a delta at that point.

So yes, it became a delta on Sunday.

Are you saying the spot I have marked in the post above is a delta? It has its own penumbra, of course I am not seeing really well right now as I had a hemorrhage in my eye Thursday… lol. That’s how the ar10389 got created instead of ar13088… lol.

Regarding Saturday 9:13 am, your post was explaining to Min why it was beta and not beta=gamma, delta was not even mentioned. 

Seriously though, would you mind posting a pic with the delta circled? I’d appreciate it! Cause that ain’t surrounded as far as I can see with my good eye….

Thanks!

LnA

Edited August 29, 2022 by WildWill

[Philalethes]

1 minute ago, WildWill said:

Are you saying the spot I have marked in the post above is a delta? It has its own penumbra, of course I am not seeing really well right now as I had a hemorrhage in my eye Thursday… lol. That’s how the ar10389 got breathed instead of ar13088… lol.

Seriously though, would you mind posting a pic with the delta circled? I’d appreciate it!

Yes, at that point it had turned into a delta, at least to my knowledge. The penumbrae had at that point merged.

The region I'm talking about is the same as the one you highlighted, i.e. here:

As you can see, there is now a continuous penumbra there.

Also, take a look at this.

Quote

Deltas usually form in one of three ways.

1. A single complex emerges at once with the dipoles intertwined and polarities reversed from the Hale-Nicholson rules (ie: (f) polarity leading (p)). This is sometimes known as an "Island Delta" group.
2. Large satellite polarity areas emerge close to existing spots so that the expansion of the emerging flux region pushes a p spot into an f spot or vice versa.
3. A growing bipolar spot group collides with another separate dipole so that opposite polarities are pushed together (this is the most frequent mode of delta group formation). It only forms from emerging umbrae, not plage. If the new dipole emerges into plage only, modest flares may occur without delta spot group formation. If it emerges under or collides with an umbra of opposite polarity, the delta spot forms and larger flares occur. If the dipole collides with an umbra of the same polarity, the two do not necessarily merge, but coexist peacefully.

It seems to me that you believe the first point there is the only type of spot that qualifies as a delta, whereas deltas can form just as well from groups running into each other and their penumbrae merging (even their umbrae, as it seems was the case with 3088).

[WildWill]

7 minutes ago, Philalethes Bythos said:

Yes, at that point it had turned into a delta, at least to my knowledge. The penumbrae had at that point merged.

The region I'm talking about is the same as the one you highlighted, i.e. here:

As you can see, there is now a continuous penumbra there.

Also, take a look at this.

It seems to me that you believe the first point there is the only type of spot that qualifies as a delta, whereas deltas can form just as well from groups running into each other and their penumbrae merging (even their umbrae, as it seems was the case with 3088).

 

What you posted there is “how deltas form”…;And I understand that this looks like number 3, where two spots get pushed together. However, that does not mean that any two spots of opposite polarity are delta if they get pushed together. 
 

Regardless of how it’s born or formed a delta has two spots of opposite polarity which share the same penumbra. This is not the case here. Not just pushed together. 
If this is a delta, we outta be seeing some serious x flare action right now, shouldn’t we? and we are not. It was more mixed on Thursday and Friday than it is now. And producing more action than it is now…

WnA

[Philalethes]

Just now, WildWill said:

 

What you posted there is “how deltas form”…;And I understand that this looks like number 3, where two spots get pushed together. However, that does not mean that any two spots of opposite polarity are delta if they get pushed together. 
 

Regardless of how it’s born or formed a delta has two spots of opposite polarity which share the same penumbra. This is not the case here. Not just pushed together. 
If this is a delta, we outta be seeing some serious x flare action right now, shouldn’t we? and we are not. It was more mixed on Thursday and Friday than it is now. And producing more action than it is now…

WnA

Well, it could be way #2 as well, but that's ultimately not the point, the point is that two spots of opposite polarity getting pushed together is precisely one of the ways deltas form. What you're looking at is indeed two spots of opposite polarity sharing the same penumbra. That is what happens when two such groups get this close together.

And no, a delta doesn't necessarily imply much flaring at all. There are other factors at play too; as was mentioned recently and created a thread about, one such factor is the amount of magnetic shear, which seems to be low in this case. I agree that the region was indeed more mixed on Thursday and Friday, as there was a small delta forming in the middle of it if I recall correctly, and I also agree that this likely contributed to there being more activity then. I do not however agree with the assessment that it's not a delta as it looks now.

[MinYoongi]

Im sorry will but why do you think this is not the same penumbra? please outline the different penumbras on the intensigram to me then.

[Philalethes]

3 minutes ago, MinYoongi said:

Im sorry will but why do you think this is not the same penumbra? please outline the different penumbras on the intensigram to me then.

I'm also curious about this, since only the magnetogram was highlighted earlier, which doesn't really show the penumbrae very well at all.

This is just the intensitygram from what I posted previously, with the single continuous penumbra highlighted (red and blue roughly corresponding to the negative and positive regions respectively):